Curse

Arathorn5000 · Sep 17, 2005, 08:34 PM // 20:34

It's not like their team wouldn't have won *anyway*. If they wiped your whole team, there's little to no chance that you will miraculously turn the battle around later, when you all have DP no less...

Grigori Sokolov · Sep 17, 2005, 09:41 PM // 21:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sereng Amaranth

what was your old name?

Holy Knights Clan, and it bugged the crap out of my leader, so we switched I guess

The reason we camped is to DP you until being flanked wouldnt be a problem while killing the guild lord. Remember, we beat you fair and square in the first encounter. It wasnt like we snuck up on you or anything...

ManadartheHealer · Sep 17, 2005, 09:44 PM // 21:44

Quit complaining about a little spawn camping.

During the PvPx weekend, there were a ton of guilds that seemed to be created just to rush and farm quick faction for gvg. The most annoying build went something like this:

A couple monks
6 W/E

They used speed-boosting stances, charge, ward against foes, grasping earth....you get the picture

soma · Sep 17, 2005, 09:53 PM // 21:53

body blocking the res point is a valid tactic. if you don't like it, then there's different guild halls with different res points that cant be blocked as easily. keep in mind the tactical advantages of each of the guild halls, instead of just going for whatever looks prettiest. you won't always be on your own guild hall, but if you're not then you're facing a lower rated team and you should have the advantage anyway.

Teufel Eldritch · Sep 18, 2005, 12:36 PM // 12:36

Good sportsmanship? No. Viable tactic within the GW gameplay framework? Yes.

Stamps · Sep 18, 2005, 12:44 PM // 12:44

Quit the whining. It's a tactic, deal with it.

(must be h4x! we got pwnd)

Navaros · Sep 18, 2005, 05:36 PM // 17:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Owen

I don't see the problem there...

Seems like a perfectly sound strategy to me. You can't win if you don't cap so anything I can do to keep you from capping seems fair and seeing as how interrupts are a staple of the Ranger that tactic seems in no way 'cheap'.

Sounds like you simply got owned by a Ranger who knew what he was doing and you're sore about it.

i wouldn't have minded "losing" as long as the team that had a dead Ghost who was not anywhere near the Altar at any point during the last 3 minutes of the game also lost. their team got owned, their Ghost was not on the Altar, yet they still "won". that's nonsense.

truth is my whole team thought we had capped the Altar because our Ghost was on it for so long and no other Ghost was anywhere to be seen! in the heat of a frantic HoH battle, it's not like you can devote all your time to waiting to see/asking around if the Altar has been capped. there's so much going on that there's no time for that

i've seen on other maps where 3 teams all got kicked out of the Altar map at the end of the round after the team that had originally capped it had their Ghost die. that should have happened in this situation too.

MuKen · Sep 18, 2005, 06:28 PM // 18:28

You're getting your goal priorities mixed up. It's primary goal: cap the altar, secondary goal: win the ghost battle. Killing/keeping alive the ghosts is only a means to the end of ultimately capping the altar. Killing the other players is only a tertiary means to the end of managing the ghosts. You won the player and ghost battles, and mistakenly believe that means you "deserve" the win, which is utterly false since that was not the primary point of the match. They achieved the primary goal while you were absorbed in the secondary goals. They played smart and got the victory they deserved. Your build did not account for ensuring you could cap after you won the ghost battle, so you lose.

Xue Yi Liang · Sep 18, 2005, 06:31 PM // 18:31

Admit it, if you woke up one morning with an idea (be it an exploit, invincible-build etc.) .... you'd use it until it was nerfed away. It'd be unusual to just forget about it out of sportsmanship.

On second thought, that only applies to original ideas ... nm

Sereng Amaranth · Sep 18, 2005, 09:22 PM // 21:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lexar

No offense, but making it hard on your teammates after they lost a match they had no chance to win anyway, that's not very good sportsmanship either.

not sure what you mean here...how did i make it hard on them after they lost?

Quote:

Part of good sportsmanship is at least acting like a worthy opponent, thus not insulting their skill by bringing henchmen.

really not sure what you mean here? so I can't bring henchmen? what are they there for then?

Quote:

I don't think you should start doing GvG with relatively new people to guildwars. If you don't have a feel for your team yet, get to know them in the tombs or arenas. Start thinking about GvG when you have 8 people online regularly.

ok, elitism, i get it now...i forget we're playing by your rules...if you call having over 500 hours total and about a quarter of that 'relatively new', then i could see a little validity in your opinion...and we do team arena and tombs regularly

we were just basically training in GvG...and this isn't even about us losing...I kind of expected it, even though we have won with henchies...this is about body-blocking the rez....not really attacking our bots...waiting until we were all at 60dp to avoid being 'flanked', lol....i mean come on....you're afraid of 45dp characters?

next thing you know they will be called Holy Nights

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xue Yi Liang

Admit it, if you woke up one morning with an idea (be it an exploit, invincible-build etc.) .... you'd use it until it was nerfed away. It'd be unusual to just forget about it out of sportsmanship.

On second thought, that only applies to original ideas ... nm

oh how virtue is lost...the fall of mankind is soon...some people are more interested in ratings than a good match I guess

Grigori Sokolov · Sep 18, 2005, 09:26 PM // 21:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sereng Amaranth

next thing you know they will be called Holy Nights

Heh, no.

we dont faction farm. we have no need to

Arathorn5000 · Sep 18, 2005, 10:53 PM // 22:53

Sereng Amaranth, you're a scrub, plain and simple.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirlin

A common call of the scrub is to cry that the kind of play in which ones tries to win at all costs is “boring” or “not fun.” Let’s consider two groups of players: a group of good players and a group of scrubs. The scrubs will play “for fun” and not explore the extremities of the game. They won’t find the most effective tactics and abuse them mercilessly. The good players will. The good players will find incredibly overpowering tactics and patterns. As they play the game more, they’ll be forced to find counters to those tactics. The vast majority of tactics that at first appear unbeatable end up having counters, though they are often quite esoteric and difficult to discover. The counter tactic prevents the first player from doing the tactic, but the first player can then use a counter to the counter. The second player is now afraid to use his counter and he’s again vulnerable to the original overpowering tactic. (See my article on Yomi layer 3 for much more on that.)

Notice that the good players are reaching higher and higher levels of play. They found the “cheap stuff” and abused it. They know how to stop the cheap stuff. They know how to stop the other guy from stopping it so they can keep doing it. And as is quite common in competitive games, many new tactics will later be discovered that make the original cheap tactic look wholesome and fair. Often in fighting games, one character will have something so good it’s unfair. Fine, let him have that. As time goes on, it will be discovered that other characters have even more powerful and unfair tactics. Each player will attempt to steer the game in the direction of his own advantages, much how grandmaster chess players attempt to steer opponents into situations in which their opponents are weak.

Can you imagine what will happen when the two groups of players meet? The experts will absolutely destroy the scrubs with any number of tactics they’ve either never seen, or never been truly forced to counter. This is because the scrubs have not been playing the same game. The experts were playing the actual game while the scrubs were playing their own homemade variant with restricting, unwritten rules.

Jakerius · Sep 18, 2005, 11:09 PM // 23:09

Quote:

"taking advantage of a game design flaw".

Yes, exploiting.

Quote:

Good sportsmanship? No. Viable tactic within the GW gameplay framework? Yes

Agreed

@ Arathorn.
Too right.

Aria · Sep 18, 2005, 11:21 PM // 23:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Navaros

their team got owned, their Ghost was not on the Altar, yet they still "won". that's nonsense.

truth is my whole team thought we had capped the Altar because our Ghost was on it for so long and no other Ghost was anywhere to be seen! in the heat of a frantic HoH battle, it's not like you can devote all your time to waiting to see/asking around if the Altar has been capped. there's so much going on that there's no time for that

Hello

There were 8 of you. There was one of him. Now.. forgive me for asking.. but what exactly stopped the five damagers you had up and running from jumping on that one ranger, while your three monks remained? Although bows are ranged, they're not quite that far. As arrows are projectiles, the ranger *must* be in line of sight. You said that your team had three minutes -- that's even more indication that it's more of a careless factor rather than an "exploit."

Surely one -- just one -- person in your team could've ran around searching for that interrupt. If your team could not manage that.. I'm sorry to say and don't wish to offend.. but I believe that it's merely a matter of needing more practice. Even if the other, third team was still alive and attacking.. surely you can't tell me that you couldn't spare two damagers to kill that one lone ranger -- the lone, single ranger who, I might add, had absolutely no significant type of healing as his team's monks were dead.

As for not having enough time to confirm whether or not the altar has been captured.. that seems rather unbelievable to me. Victory in hall dictates capture of the dais. This is why people wait until the two minute mark -- why some people cap before that, and why other, often better informed teams capture later. Capture is crucial, and the huge green letters can't be missed (unless you're a monk.. and even then, I'm a bit skeptical). It's the main objective of HoH -- not decimating the other team.. but capturing. As such, isn't it only natural to think that a team who doesn't devote enough attention and give enough priority to the dais to even ask if the altar was captured -- isn't it unsurprising to find that a single ranger foiled an entire team? I'm sorry, but this wasn't an exploit. It was carelessness.

In all, sure, spawn camping and things like disrupting dais captures are annoying. However.. it's not exactly an exploit, but a different manner of playing the game. Both are rather easy to counter if correctly managed and directed. The devs can't hold your hands forever, ya know.

And I wouldn't wish them to.. ever.

LathalDraugr · Sep 19, 2005, 12:00 AM // 00:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arathorn5000

Sereng Amaranth, you're a scrub, plain and simple.

And? Scrub merely means someone who plays for fun. Can we stop this scrub/carebear nonsense now? Some of us are no longer the stereotypical narcassistic and nerdy 13-17 teenage males with no life and fighter-pilot reactions (or never were). Sorry but the days when the kids who hung around arcades playing beat-em-ups were the main market for games are gone. They're the minority now and an insignificant one at that.

The hardcore (only way I can think of to describe the opposite of scrubs) may still be playing Starcraft but Blizzard aren't making any money off them. The hardcore may think of themselves as trend-setters but given the sales of Sims 2 and other singleplayer or non-competitive games, as well as all the people who play online for fun they're a rapidly dwindling minority.

The average gamer is getting older now and has a job and more responsibilities and can't afford to spend most of their free time attempting to compete with schoolkids and students who also have faster reactions and are likely more competitive.

If people want to play to win by abusing the game systems to make for boring but succesful games thats fine but most players do not want this and if A.net is playing to win for real (ie. trying to make a profit) they'll listen to the majority of their customers and given the nerfing of sprit-spam and changing of other skills to prevent abusive or overpowered builds it wouldn't surprise me if they fix some of the issues raised in this thread in the future if they become widespread tactics.

Grigori Sokolov · Sep 19, 2005, 01:37 AM // 01:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by LathalDraugr

The hardcore may think of themselves as trend-setters but given the sales of Sims 2 and other singleplayer or non-competitive games...

People play the Sims 2?

I just lost all my faith in humanity.

Arathorn5000 · Sep 19, 2005, 03:09 AM // 03:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by LathalDraugr

And? Scrub merely means someone who plays for fun. Can we stop this scrub/carebear nonsense now? Some of us are no longer the stereotypical narcassistic and nerdy 13-17 teenage males with no life and fighter-pilot reactions (or never were). Sorry but the days when the kids who hung around arcades playing beat-em-ups were the main market for games are gone. They're the minority now and an insignificant one at that.

The hardcore (only way I can think of to describe the opposite of scrubs) may still be playing Starcraft but Blizzard aren't making any money off them. The hardcore may think of themselves as trend-setters but given the sales of Sims 2 and other singleplayer or non-competitive games, as well as all the people who play online for fun they're a rapidly dwindling minority.

The average gamer is getting older now and has a job and more responsibilities and can't afford to spend most of their free time attempting to compete with schoolkids and students who also have faster reactions and are likely more competitive.

If people want to play to win by abusing the game systems to make for boring but succesful games thats fine but most players do not want this and if A.net is playing to win for real (ie. trying to make a profit) they'll listen to the majority of their customers and given the nerfing of sprit-spam and changing of other skills to prevent abusive or overpowered builds it wouldn't surprise me if they fix some of the issues raised in this thread in the future if they become widespread tactics.

Meh. So what if he's a scrub? Indeed. I'm just saying it's pointless for him to sit here complaining that a team used a valid tactic to win a match. He's not a scrub because he wants to play for fun. He's a scrub because he's using his own mindset of rules and if others don't follow them he calls them 'unsportsmanlike' or 'abusive'. The point is, the game rules are all that matters.

And I don't understand your distinction between playing to win and playing for fun. I for one find it fun to play as competitively as possible, with the goal of winning in mind. If you don't play to win, then it really doesn't matter in the first place if someone uses a tactic that goes against your "moral code" of fairness.

Your stereotype of kids being much more competitive than adults is amusing at best....run some tests or surveys and prove it, but don't just spout nonsense. From my perspective, age is not linked with competitive playing. "Now that I have a job, I lost my reflexes and my desire to beat the opponents"

This has nothing to do with A-net fixing things. If they wanted you to be unable to bodyblock the ressurection area, they would have made it completely open. If the OP was actually wanting to suggest a game change, he would have posted in the correct forum area, and he wouldn't spend his whole post complaining that he was wronged by those damn "elitists".

romO · Sep 19, 2005, 03:48 AM // 03:48

if they were able to kill you all in the first place and get to your res point anyway, you lost man. the fact that they proceeded to kill you unnecesarily 3 times after that was bad sportsmanship. but you could have always left.

Kakumei · Sep 19, 2005, 03:58 AM // 03:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dax

Yes, I remember hearing alot of folks say "If it's there, it's meant to be done" so there ya go.

too bad it's complete and utter bullshit

just because it's possible to do in the game doesn't mean the devs want you to do it

Arathorn5000 · Sep 19, 2005, 05:07 AM // 05:07

Yes they do want you to do it. They built the game to promote the use of player skill and ingenuity. Some players will push the upper echelons of game strategy, you cannot ignore this, and A-net should want this to happen. When good players push tactics and strategy that far, they come up with things that the developers might have not even thought of, and they should be proud when it happens because it means they have created a game with tremendous depth.

This isn't to say that the developers won't sometimes "nerf" things that went unforseen and they consider to be too effective. I'm saying that unexpected, effective strategies aren't necessarily bad, and are probably generally good for the game.